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IQBAL.LATIF

Searching the purpose of our existence and where do we end up?
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Can you have judgment if you have no faith?

Sat Jan 7, 2012 7:41 AM EST
gingrich, faith, world-news
By iqbal.latif
'Man has just learned to walk upright, and now he presumes to create his gods.' Trevor Karsdale 
Man is fresh out of cave. 10,000 years of known civilization starting from Jericho is only a fraction of time in our one-billion- year plausible, and likely to stay here, until the sun implodes and busts us. The Prophets and Gods we have created in this cave age era of ours will all be forgotten as a small footnote of our pagan humble beginning.

One thing will continue and that is the ideas perpetrated by the likes of Carl Sagan: ''For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love.'' Future recorder of events will treat us 'the knowledgeable creatures of this age of information' as 'upper cave age' limited mortals due to our predominant addiction and mental enslavement on a set of beliefs originated from hearsay, scriptural myths and legends. 4 billion of practicing faithful are oblivious to the fact that mankind is at the cusp of a new era of information that shall last millions of millenniums. 
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The true literary inheritance of mankind in probably a few hundred years and for future millenniums will be Homer's Iliad or Odyssey, Dante's Divine Comedy or Milton's Paradise Lost, not any consecrated scripture. 


(Odyssey is a major ancient Greek epic poems attributed to Homer. It is, in part, a sequel to the Iliad, the other work ascribed to Homer. The Divine Comedy is an epic poem written by Dante Alighieri between 1308 and his death in 1321. It is widely considered the preeminent work of Italian literature. Paradise Lost is an epic poem in blank verse by the 17th-century English poet John Milton. It was originally published in 1667 in ten books.)


‎''That which can be destroyed by the truth should be.” 

 

“Does faith matter? Absolutely,” Gingrich said. “How can you have judgment if you have no faith? How can I trust you with power if you don’t pray?” He continued, “the notion that you are endowed by your creator sets a certain boundary of what we mean by America.” Gingrich said that Americans should value religion first, above morality and knowledge.

The reason our life is devoid of the richness of renaissance men is that the days are past when our present schools could give time and attention to a child to learn knowledge. 

History is the first step of learning for any child; history teaches man to learn from the mistakes of the past. That knowledge will lead him/her to Geography and finally to familiarity of classics and our globe. Once he/she knows our earth well, some unanswered queries will lead him to know our solar system where our 'blue pearl' sits as a third planet around the sun in quite a silent part of our galaxy. 

Once we discover our triviality in the system of the Universe, the road to self-discovery is laid bare. The idea of a 14 billion-year-old Universe raises an enquiry and questions the entire logic and philosophy of Abrahamic scriptures. Faith tells us a story that is the greatest myth of all times. If that is the litmus test of trust that Gingrich imposes“How can you have judgment if you have no faith? How can I trust you with power if you don’t pray?” then USA/mankind has a big problem. Either we are created in 7 days / are only 6,000 years old, or came out of nothingness 14 billion years ago from the womb of Providence and The Big Bang. The two positions are incompatible, one has to give way to other. 

It is this dichotomy and basic error of understanding of our age that is rarely addressed. Majority of the Faithful across the lines of Abrahamic scriptures refuse to believe science of creation that evolved through a carbon-based life from the throes of dead stars. From the womb of death we are formed, to quote Rumi who inspires me a lot:

I died as a mineral and became a plant,

I died as a plant and rose to animal,

I died as an animal and I was Man.

Why should I fear?

When was I less by dying?

Rumi

When a star dies we form! Yes, every carbon atom in our body is the primordial 'star dust.' 

Though the 'faithful' have broken the hearts of atoms, discovered particles that travel faster than light very near to the Vatican at CERN, they undertake journeys to study distant galaxies but the eternal sin and guilt of reconciliation with the scriptures that acquaint us with an allegorical tale of creation still remains a collective burden on mankind's conscience.

Human progress and our mental capacities are driven by our creativity; by maintaining status quo we become crude and intellectually self-indulgent. Nothing is perfect or faultless, we are in midst of dynamic changes; only our continuous flux and change of opinions by asking the right questions, sceptical enquiry will set up the foundation of a great society, a culture that frowns on questions and condemns analytical enquiry is bound to implode.

 

What consumes my mind is the void and slow pace of human history and phase of discovery from 500 BC to 1600/1800 AD and the huge exponential growth from 1600 to 2011. I am obsessed with discoveries that led to the causes and origins of that massive exponential increase in rate of growth of our knowledge spectrum. If you want to discover those nations who failed, and those who progressed, just see the names from where the prophets of knowledge appeared in between ‘1600-2000.’ In between 1000-2000 AD, "Medieval theologians" have been singlehandedly responsible for the arrest of growth of knowledge in some geographical regions of the world.

Ideas should be rewarded, not persecuted. The idea-man should be loved, not condemned. When Galileo was condemned and arrested, the emphasis of science moved from Italy to Northern Europe. When in 1200 AD Ghazali arrested free will over philosophical dialogue of Averroes and introduced the concept of predestination as the favourite strain of Allah’s ideology, Middle East descended into a chaos which it has not recovered from so far. History takes time but grinds very fine and destroys those who deny the flow of knowledge. 

The holy scriptures in succession tend to wean authority from the previous and tend to support the incoherence of the myths, though supportive of fables, but defining them for their own geography. The stories of Torah, Bible and Quran are not supportive of each other rather contradict each other, Newton negation of Aristotle made Aristotle even the greatest of beings.

‎"Come, come again, whoever you are, come!
Heathen, fire worshipper or idolatrous, come!
Come even if you broke your penitence a hundred times,
Ours is the portal of hope, come as you are."

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  • Public Discussion (30)
Walt42

What we need to absolutely stop human advancement is...more religion. What I find amazing is that so many religious humans, when faced with provable facts, continue to believe in what they have been taught to believe. They find it easier to believe fables, than facts. Amazing.

  • 18 votes
Reply#1 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 9:41 AM EST
Shaun-6969

My sentiments exactly!!!

  • 8 votes
#1.1 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 12:39 PM EST
agagnu

...and Gingrich does not understand the difference between faith and religion.
he does not have faith but relies on religion to pardon his sins.

  • 6 votes
#1.2 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 1:38 PM EST
MS Dreama

to Walt42 ....wide conception, and to add in some way, people go back to the basics of where they started when they get jumbled...i consider {people} lacking GOD in their lives and{HUman} heaven understand beings. In Memory of 'It take all kinds to make this world, and keep the Freedom it shares in the purlism we have in our founding documentation of this country USofA!

    #1.3 - Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:38 AM EST
    Reply
    JJM-4236845

    Yes. A better question may be can you make a good judgement if all you have if faith? Nothing is black and white...ever.

    • 5 votes
    Reply#2 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 10:24 AM EST
    scott-1148057

    Yes. A better question may be can you make a good judgement if all you have if faith? Nothing is black and white...ever..........the one major weakness of the atheist mindset. Things are black and white to those with a fully developed intellect. An atheist can't make a judgement whether something is right or wrong without using a moral standard.

      #2.1 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 10:41 AM EST
      Physicist-retired

      Things are black and white to those with a fully developed intellect.

      "The more I know, the more I realize I don't know." – Albert Einstein

      "The fool thinks he is wise . . . The wise man knows himself to be a fool." – William Shakespeare

      "I know only that I do not know." – Socrates

      "If you're not a born-again Christian, you're a failure as a human being." - Jerry Falwell

      • 11 votes
      #2.2 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 11:11 AM EST
      scott-1148057

      "The more I know, the more I realize I don't know." – Albert Einstein

      "The fool thinks he is wise . . . The wise man knows himself to be a fool." – William Shakespeare

      "I know only that I do not know." – Socrates

      "If you're not a born-again Christian, you're a failure as a human being." - Jerry Falwell

      these are all swell but irrelevant to the allegation of things not being seen in black and white.....gray area's are where problems always start....and finish!!!

        #2.3 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 12:47 PM EST
        hemphill

        An atheist can't make a judgement whether something is right or wrong without using a moral standard.

        A person can't make a judgement about whether something is right or wrong without using a moral standard.

        There, fixed that for you.

        • 3 votes
        #2.4 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 2:49 PM EST
        MS Dreama

        and Hemphill the moral would be....Psychological rather than physical or tangible in effect and when the PT cruises in error ...we find our 'Psyche' (dictionary :That which is responsible for one's thoughts and feelings; the seat of the faculty of reason;The immaterial part of a person; the actuating cause of an individual life) thus why we get confused of religion and how and why our sins can be reconciled to live with God though THEE Spirit of HIM aka: The Gift . some do not come to this grasp, YET!

          #2.5 - Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:54 AM EST
          Reply
          JJM-4236845

          Good post. Thoughtful. I agree. In ther middle of the page the paragraph beginning with Human progress...is repeated in the same frame...I noticed it because it was a thoughtful comment.

          • 2 votes
          Reply#3 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 10:29 AM EST
          iqbal.latif

          Fixed,,

            #3.1 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 7:08 PM EST
            Reply
            boomer 54

            Always love your thoughts. I also wished I could know future thoughts of our civilization.

            • 1 vote
            Reply#4 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 10:41 AM EST
            Edward-453134

            Be careful what you love. Thoughts can be for salvation, whereas other thoughts can be for damnation. I hate the thoughts I've been having. Being realistic, they have been for damnation. I do believe in God, to have salvation or damnation.

              #4.1 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 11:10 AM EST
              The "warrior" of islam

              Thoughts can be for salvation, whereas other thoughts can be for damnation. I hate the thoughts I've been having. Being realistic, they have been for damnation. I do believe in God, to have salvation or damnation.

              ?? !!

                #4.2 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 11:15 AM EST
                J. W. Welch

                Edward

                What are you talking about?

                  #4.3 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 12:52 PM EST
                  iqbal.latif

                  Pls read this:http://www.sentientdevelopments.com/2007/05/drake-equation-is-obsolete.html

                    #4.4 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 9:11 PM EST
                    iqbal.latif

                    Pls do read this:http://iqballatif.newsvine.com/_news/2011/07/17/7099181-our-brain-is-a-computer-which-will-stop-working-when-its-components-fail-there-is-no-heaven-or-afterlife-for-broken-down-computers

                    • 1 vote
                    #4.5 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 9:43 PM EST
                    Reply
                    The "warrior" of islam

                    New windows open: Future recorder of events will treat us 'the knowledgeable creatures of this age of information' as 'upper cave age' limited mortals due to our pre dominant addiction and mental enslavement on set of beliefs originated from hearsay, scriptural myths and legends. 4 billion of practicing faithful are oblivious to the fact that mankind is at cusp of a new era of information that shall last million of millenniums.

                    Ike speaks with great clarity: Though the 'faithful' have broken the hearts of atoms, discovered particles that travel faster than light very near to the Vatican at CERN, they undertake journeys to study distant galaxies but the eternal sin and guilt of reconciliation with the scriptures that acquaint us with an allegorical tale of creation still remains a collective burden on mankind's conscience.

                    • 2 votes
                    Reply#5 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 11:00 AM EST
                    johnny angel

                    High-tech experiments have proven that light will change its behavior simply by knowing we are watching. Scientists were dumbfounded yet clergy responded that this is a core belief of millenia. Whether we choose the metaphoric (or otherwise) the reality is clearly under our own nose (or eye) if we will but look (or horrors, feel) which is anathema to scripture.

                    • 1 vote
                    #5.1 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 11:55 AM EST
                    Reply
                    The "warrior" of islam

                    Ike has summed it up well:

                    One thing will continue i.e. the ideas perpetrated by likes of Carl Sagan: ''For small creatures such as we the vastness is bearable only through love.'' Future recorder of events will treat us 'the knowledgeable creatures of this age of information' as 'upper cave age' limited mortals due to our pre dominant addiction and mental enslavement on set of beliefs originated from hearsay, scriptural myths and legends. 4 billion of practicing faithful are oblivious to the fact that mankind is at cusp of a new era of information that shall last million of millenniums.

                    The true literary inheritance of mankind in probably few hundred years and for future millenniums will be Homers Iliad or Odyssey, Dante's Divine Comedy or Milton's Paradise Lost not any consecrated scripture.

                    (Odyssey is a major ancient Greek epic poems attributed to Homer. It is, in part, a sequel to the Iliad, the other work ascribed to Homer. The Divine Comedy is an epic poem written by Dante Alighieri between 1308 and his death in 1321. It is widely considered the preeminent work of Italian literature.Paradise Lost is an epic poem in blank verse by the 17th-century English poet John Milton. It was originally published in 1667 in ten books.)

                    • 4 votes
                    Reply#6 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 11:13 AM EST
                    johnny angel

                    Einstein did summation as well...

                    The most beautiful and most profound experience is the sensation of the mystical. It is the sower of all true science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead. To know that what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their primitive forms - this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness.
                    ( Albert Einstein - The Merging of Spirit and Science)

                    • 1 vote
                    #6.1 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 11:44 AM EST
                    Reply
                    johnny angel

                    Gingrich said that Americans should value religion first, above morality and knowledge.

                    This belief is the central failure of (all) religion. Even Jesus rallied against religion. Morality is what he preached (and demonstrated) every day of his life. The failures of "organization" are well documented and dreadful. Only the "singular" heart can hope to listen, while bigotry of every flavor appears in the collective.

                    If Newt has any faith at all, it would be in the "pre-emptive strike".

                    • 1 vote
                    Reply#7 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 11:38 AM EST
                    J. W. Welch

                    Naturally Gingrich would place morality below religion on his personal choice pecking order.

                    So, according to Newt morality and knowledge take a back seat to valuing religion? It appears to me that religion has proven to be an impediment to knowledge and moral behavior for far too many "true believers."

                    "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with reason, sense, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." Galileo Gallilei

                      #7.1 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 1:21 PM EST
                      Reply
                      Lisafrequency

                      My faith tells me to "judge not". I do filter situations thru my own experience but, i am sure that things are not always what they appear to be.

                      I also think the golden rule applies to almost anything that may inspire my action towards others.

                      • 3 votes
                      Reply#8 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 12:06 PM EST
                      Kathleen McKenzie

                      An atheist can't make a judgement whether something is right or wrong without using a moral standard.

                      So what makes you think that atheists have no moral standards? Personally, I would 100 times rather be judged by an atheist than by Fundamentalist, Bible-thumping believers.

                      • 3 votes
                      Reply#9 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 12:44 PM EST
                      izmee

                      Seems the question should be Can you have judgement if you have faith.

                      • 2 votes
                      Reply#10 - Sat Jan 7, 2012 3:17 PM EST
                      iqbal.latif

                      Just do it!

                      Reducing our physical footprint and increasing our intellectual footprint is the challenge we all mutually face. I am faced most of the time people asking questions like:

                      What should we do differently to take us over the top? What kind of training do we need to be ready for a changing world and where should we get it from? How can history help us, it is a story of the past why should we not treat it as such? Where are the opportunities? Those who are highly successful often ask if success and happiness can be threaded collectively to generate a goldilocks nirvana zone of living?

                      In a changing world it is only through increasing our intellectual footprint. that we can create a new criterion of values for society. Incorporating multiversity is the need of the day. It helps us grow our intellectual footprint; that in turns provides us with the primary tool of contentment that acts as an elixir in times of upheavals and lead us to calmer shores. We frown on anything that is complicated, we like monosyllables and one liners, but importance of nurturing intellectual traditions within us is of primary importance. The foregoing needs longer focus and redefining the terms of our training that is designed towards obligatory egalitarianism of aptitude; even if it means dumbing down all to a comparable level.

                      It is our intellectual footprint that will ultimately determine our impact upon the world. Our intellectual footprint grows with the accumulation of rationalism, tolerance, knowledge and skills on the pattern of 'The Renaissance man.' (a man who has a wide range of accomplishments and intellectual interests)

                      Like a sprinter who dashes from word go, we need to break the status quo and release ourselves from established hierarchy of habitual instructions. In this connected world all the knowledge is on our finger print, we need to indulge in solid efforts to get this knowledge translated in our act and character.

                      The more equipped we are to stare at complexities of life, easier will be for us to find uncomplicated solutions. The only distinction that we can make in the world is application of the experiences of the past that we learn through the giants, we decipher and question life by standing on the shoulders of the giants; we probably can excel them in moments of eureka and when genius occasionally visits us. You put your genius into your life; talent into your works!

                      Basic enquiry of established wisdom requires knowledge of the current nomenclature of thinking, don't be in a catnap let when genius knocks on your door!

                      Our very short momentarily stay in this world can become everlasting if we leave some speck of cyber intellect behind, one day someone will pick it up. All the known greats left this world and bequeathed us with conventional wisdom that can help us to grow and to make some difference in the world.

                      Eventually, we must set our sights higher, engage in deep thinking, waste time on discussions and liberated naughty moments, our objective being learning the ropes from the skilled. We need to develop ideas that will outline new fields of inquiry and that is the only way we can prepare a roadmap of the world's paramount and preeminent thinking. Intellect brainstorming is all intellectual masturbation. Just do it!

                      • 6 votes
                      Reply#11 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 8:59 AM EST
                      Heavy Artillery Rocker

                      You folks really confuse me with how much emphasis is placed on the intellect, most people are not.

                      Its really very simple. True or not, religion is a road map of how we should live our lives. That being said, If you were to live your life as instructed in your bible, koran etc. and all people were to do the same, we could all share a much more fulfilling and peaceful existence.

                      All religious books predict the end of mankind. True to the article that our sun will eventually die out. In that final moment many will cry out to god for deliverance. Unfortunately, theirs will be a tormented ending.

                      My belief in this matter would mean even an atheist could find peace so long as he has lead a life full of good and moral decisions.

                      In that scenario I would have to disagree with Gingrich. I certainly don't wish that I or anyone else would be "judged" per his statement. I would hope our leaders would weigh facts, and conclude to do what is morally right for all who they govern.

                      We have all clearly witnessed dictators or others in a position of power who claim to have religion go forward to commit some of the most atrocious crimes against humanity. So in the question of whether or not a man without religion could make a "moral" judgement I would have to say yes, I believe they can. "Will they" is the real question.

                      To become corrupt is a sign of weakness and heaped with reward. To be morally strong is a sign of good character and brings humble reward.

                      Of course not all wealthy people are corrupt and many are truly humble, kind and giving toward their fellow man. Then there are the wealthy politicians who hold an agenda outside of the common good. These are usually the ones who flaunt religion as their only true guidance. A wolf in sheep's clothing is never hard to see. They are the ones shouting "religion" instead of being asked.

                      • 4 votes
                      Reply#12 - Sun Jan 8, 2012 9:59 AM EST
                      MS Dreama

                      on response to we are on salvation or damnation......dam means stop...but the .......and salv means we salvage the mess is cleaned up SO ....Key point would be...are we in Gods favor or not. we have the 10 commandments as road maps to avoid .....parable to gain understanding proverb to get wisdom and song of songs to know loves passions. and revealed truth in revelaiton which is an outline of old and new testament... so SIMPLE , yet living and being in rest and assurance is so .difficult at times..HUH!

                      • 3 votes
                      Reply#13 - Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:02 AM EST
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